I wish the church fathers were better botanists and would rail against the specific pharmacopeia. Again, how did Christianity take hold in a world with such a rich mystical tradition? BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. Perhaps more generally, you could just talk about other traditions around the Mediterranean, North African, or, let's even say Judaism. And so I do see an avenue, like I kind of obliquely mentioned, but I do think there's an avenue within organized religion and for people who dedicate their lives as religious professionals to ministry to perhaps take a look at this in places where it might work. And so in the epilogue, I say we simply do not know the relationship between this site in Spain and Eleusis, nor do we know what was happening at-- it doesn't automatically mean that Eleusis was a psychedelic rite. And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. And maybe in these near-death experiences we begin to actually experience that at a visceral level. But the point being, the religion of brewing seems to pop up at the very beginning of civilization itself, or the very beginning of monumental engineering at this world's first sanctuary. Jerry Brown wrote a good review that should be read to put the book in its proper place. So I was obsessed with this stuff from the moment I picked up an article in The Economist called the God Pill back in 2007. He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. So those are all possibly different questions to ask and answer. I mean, something of symbolic significance, something monumental. [1] According to this theory, older adults try to maintain this continuity of lifestyle by adapting strategies that are connected to their past experiences. I will ask Brian to describe how he came to write this remarkable book, and the years of sleuthing and studying that went into it. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. would certainly appreciate. He's talking about kind of psychedelic wine. And if it's one thing Catholicism does very, very well, it's contemplative mysticism. I'm paraphrasing this one. CHARLES STANG: OK. Now let's move into the Greek mystery. So I present this as proof of concept, and I heavily rely on the Gospel of John and the data from Italy because that's what was there. But it survives. So when Hippolytus is calling out the Marcosians, and specifically women, consecrating this alternative Eucharist in their alternative proto-mass, he uses the Greek word-- and we've talked about this before-- but he uses the Greek word [SPEAKING GREEK] seven times in a row, by the way, without specifying which drugs he's referring to. CHARLES STANG: Thank you, Brian. And even Burkert, I think, calls it the most famous of the mystery rituals. President and CEO, First Southeast Financial Corp and First Federal Savings and Loan Director, Carolina First Bank and The South Financial Group From about 1500 BC to the fourth century AD, it calls to the best and brightest of not just Athens but also Rome. That would require an entirely different kind of evidence. And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. In the same place in and around Pompeii, this is where Christianity is really finding its roots. So if you don't think that you are literally consuming divine blood, what is the point of religion? So listening right now, there's at least one orthodox priest, there's at least one Catholic priest, an Episcopalian, an Anglican, and several others with whom I've been talking in recent months. And does it line up with the promise from John's gospel that anyone who drinks this becomes instantly immortal? Then what was the Gospel of John, how did it interpret the Eucharist and market it, and so on. And inside that beer was all kinds of vegetable matter, like wheat, oats, and sedge and lily and flax and various legumes. And when I read psychedelic literature or I read the literature on near-death experiences, I see experiences similar to what I experienced as a young boy. I go out of my way, in both parts of the book, which, it's divided into the history of beer and the history of wine, essentially. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. Newsweek calls him 'the world's best human guinea pig,' and The New York Times calls him 'a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk.' In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc . These Native American church and the UDV, both some syncretic form of Christianity. General Stanley McChrystal Mastering Risk: A User's Guide | Brought to you by Kettle & Fire high quality, tasty, and conveniently packaged bone broths; Eight Sleep. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Then I'll ask a series of questions that follow the course of his book, focusing on the different ancient religious traditions, the evidence for their psychedelic sacraments, and most importantly, whether and how the assembled evidence yields a coherent picture of the past. And Brian, it would be helpful for me to know whether you are more interested in questions that take up the ancient world or more that deal with this last issue, the sort of contemporary and the future. And did the earliest Christians inherit the same secret tradition? And Brian, once again, thank you so much. CHARLES STANG: So it may be worth mentioning, for those who are attending who haven't read the book, that you asked, who I can't remember her name, the woman who is in charge of the Eleusis site, whether some of the ritual vessels could be tested, only to discover-- tested for the remains of whatever they held, only to learn that those vessels had been cleaned and that no more vessels were going to be unearthed. The Continuity Hypothesis was put forward by John Bowlby (1953) as a critical effect of attachments in his development of Attachment Theory. I'm not. And besides that, young Brian, let's keep the mysteries mysteries. . It's not just Cana. Klaus Schmidt, who was with the German Archaeological Institute, called this a sanctuary and called these T-shaped pillars representations of gods. That is my dog Xena. His aim when he set out on this journey 12 years ago was to assess the validity of a rather old, but largely discredited hypothesis, namely, that some of the religions of the ancient Mediterranean, perhaps including Christianity, used a psychedelic sacrament to induce mystical experiences at the border of life and death, and that these psychedelic rituals were just the tip of the iceberg, signs of an even more ancient and pervasive religious practice going back many thousands of years. It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? There was an absence of continuity in the direction of the colony as Newport made his frequent voyages to and . And I've listened to the volunteers who've gone through these experiences. And that that's how I-- and by not speculating more than we can about the mystical supper, if we follow the hypothesis that this is a big if for some early communities of Greek speakers, this is how I'm finding common ground with priests both Catholic and Orthodox and Protestants. Psychedelics Today: PTSF 35 (with Brian Muraresku) Griffithsfund.org You mentioned there were lots of dead ends, and there certainly were. The Immortality Key has its shortcomings. The pagan continuity hypothesis at the heart of this book made sense to me. And when Houston says something like that, it grabs the attention of a young undergrad a bit to your south in Providence, Rhode Island, who was digging into Latin and Greek and wondering what the heck this was all about. It seems entirely believable to me that we have a potion maker active near Pompeii. That's staying within the field of time. It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. That also only occurs in John, another epithet of Dionysus. And I think there are so many sites and excavations and so many chalices that remain to be tested. Which is a very weird thing today. They're mixing potions. And so that's what motivated my search here. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. CHARLES STANG: Yeah. She joins me for most events and meetings. I write it cognizant of the fact that the Eucharist doesn't work for many, many people. Examine the pros and cons of the continuity theory of aging, specifically in terms of how it neglects to consider social institutions or chronically ill adults. So I think it's really interesting details here worth following up on. So if we can test Eucharistic vessels, I wouldn't be surprised at all that we find one. Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. And at some point in my narrative, I do include mention of Gobekli Tepe, for example, which is essentially twice the age of Stonehenge. They were mixed or fortified. So why the silence from the heresiologists on a psychedelic sacrament? And she talks about kind of being born again, another promise from John's gospel. And if it only occurs in John, the big question is why. If you are drawn to psychedelics, in my mind, it means you're probably drawn to contemplative mysticism. Just from reading Dioscorides and reading all the different texts, the past 12 years have absolutely transformed the way I think about wine. But let me say at the outset that it is remarkably learned, full of great historical and philological detail. And if the latter, do you think there's a good chance that religions will adopt psychedelics back into their rituals?". Now, I think you answered that last part. There is evidence that has been either overlooked or perhaps intentionally suppressed. Here's what we don't. And we know from the record that [SPEAKING GREEK] is described as being so crowded with gods that they were easier to find than men. And there were moments when the sunlight would just break through. CHARLES STANG: OK. Then there's what were the earliest Christians doing with the Eucharist. To sum up the most exciting parts of the book: the bloody wine of Dionysius became the bloody wine of Jesus - the pagan continuity hypothesis - the link between the Ancient Greeks of the final centuries BC and the paleo-Christians of the early centuries AD - in short, the default psychedelic of universal world history - the cult of . he goes out on a limb and says that black nightshade actually causes [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH], which is not unpleasant visions, i.e. So Dionysus is not the god of alcohol. And there were probably other Eleusises like that to the east. But in any case, Ruck had his career, well, savaged, in some sense, by the reaction to his daring to take this hypothesis seriously, this question seriously. BRIAN MURARESKU: I wish I could answer that question. Amongst all the mystery religions, Eleusis survives. So I went fully down the rabbit hole. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of " tikkun olam "repairing and improving This discussion on Febrary 1, 2021, between CSWR Director Charles Stang and Brian Muraresku about his new book, The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name,a groundbreaking dive into the role of psychedelics in the ancient Mediterranean world. We see lots of descriptions of this in the mystical literature with which you're very familiar. So psychedelics or not, I think it's the cultivation of that experience, which is the actual key. And the truth is that this is a project that goes well beyond ancient history, because Brian is convinced that what he has uncovered has profound implications for the future of religion, and specifically, the future of his own religion, Roman Catholicism. And she happened to find it on psilocybin. And so even within the New Testament you see little hints and clues that there was no such thing as only ordinary table wine. What is its connection to Eleusis? And so I can see psychedelics being some kind of extra sacramental ministry that potentially could ease people at the end of life. And I think that we would behoove ourselves to incorporate, resuscitate, maybe, some of those techniques that seem to have been employed by the Greeks at Eleusis or by the Dionysians or some of these earliest Christians. I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. That's the big question. Because every time I think about ancient wine, I am now immediately thinking about wine that is spiked. I understand the appeal of that. I mean, this really goes to my deep skepticism. I see something that's happening to people. A rebirth into a new conception of the self, the self's relationship to things that are hard to define, like God. I think it's important you have made a distinction between what was Jesus doing at the Last Supper, as if we could ever find out. According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? Brian has been very busy taking his new book on the road, of course, all online, and we're very grateful to him for taking the time to join us this evening. So can you reflect for us where you really are and how you chose to write this book? That is, by giving, by even floating the possibility of this kind of-- at times, what seems like a Dan Brown sort of story, like, oh my god, there's a whole history of Christianity that's been suppressed-- draws attention, but the real point is actually that you're not really certain about the story, but you're certain is that we need to be more attentive to this evidence and to assess it soberly. Did the ancient Greeks use drugs to find God? And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. And her best guess is that it was like this open access sanctuary. And so how far should this investigation go? Now that the pagan continuity hypothesis is defended, the next task is to show that the pagan and proto-Christian ritual sacraments were, in fact, psychedelicbrews. What was the wine in the early Eucharist? I mean, the honest answer is not much. Dogs, indicative of the Greek goddess Hecate, who, amongst other things was known as the [GREEK], the dog eater. Thank you. IMDb is the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF WORLD RELIGIONS, Harvard Divinity School42 Francis Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 617.495.4495, my.hds |Harvard Divinity School |Harvard University |Privacy |Accessibility |Digital Accessibility | Trademark Notice |Reporting Copyright Infringements. There's a good number of questions that are very curious why you are insisting on remaining a psychedelic virgin. So, like, they're wonderstruck, or awestruck by their libations and their incense. That's one narrative that I feel is a little sensational. Because what tends to happen in those experiences is a death and rebirth. Who were the Saints? It's this 22-acre site of free-standing limestone, some rising 20 feet in the air, some weighing 50 tons. He's joining us from Uruguay, where he has wisely chosen to spend his pandemic isolation. But when it comes to that Sunday ritual, it just, whatever is happening today, it seems different from what may have motivated the earliest Christians, which leads me to very big questions. The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature.\[Footnote:] Willoughby, Pagan Regeneration, p. 114.\ 7 She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but of all men" as well. So I'm not convinced that-- I think you're absolutely right that what this establishes is that Christians in southern Italy could have-- could have had access to the kinds of things that have been recovered from that drug farm, let's call it. And I think it's proof of concept-- just proof of concept-- for investing serious funding, and attention into the actual search for these kinds of potions. McGovern also finds wine from Egypt, for example, in 3150 BC, wine that is mixed with a number of interesting ingredients. Maybe for those facing the end of life. That's, just absurd. He has talked about the potential evidence for psychedelics in a Mithras liturgy. It was the Jesuits who taught me Latin and Greek. Administration and supervision endeavors and with strong knowledge in: Online teaching and learning methods, Methods for Teaching Mathematics and Technology Integration for K-12 and College . So perhaps there's even more evidence. And I think what the pharmaceutical industry can do is help to distribute this medicine. So I spent 12 years looking for that data, eventually found it, of all places, in Catalonia in Spain in this 635-page monograph that was published in 2002 and for one reason or another-- probably because it was written in Catalan-- was not widely reported to the academic community and went largely ignored. It pushes back the archaeology on some of this material a full 12,000 years. In the Classics world, there's a pagan continuity hypothesis with the very origin of Christianity, and many overt references to Greek plays in the Gospel of John. The same Rome that circumstantially shows up, and south of Rome, where Constantine would build his basilicas in Naples and Capua later on. I took this to Greg [? It would have parts of Greek mysticism in it, the same Greek mysteries I've spent all these years investigating, and it would have some elements of what I see in paleo-Christianity. It's arguably not the case in the third century. But what we do know is that their sacrament was wine and we know a bit more about the wine of antiquity, ancient Greek wine, than we can piece together from these nocturnal celebrations. He was greatly influenced by Sigmund Freud (1940) who viewed an infant's first relationship - usually with the mother - as "the prototype of all later love-relations". Wonderful, well, thank you. So now it's true that these heresy hunters show an interest in this love potion. And if there's historical precedent for it, all the more so. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact." There's all kinds of reasons I haven't done it. Up until that point I really had very little knowledge of psychedelics, personal or literary or otherwise. If they've been doing this, as you suggest, for 2,000 years, nearly, what makes you think that a few ancient historians are going to turn that aircraft carrier around? And I want to say that this question that we've been exploring the last half hour about what all this means for the present will be very much the topic of our next event on February 22, which is taking up the question of psychedelic chaplaincy. And I describe that as somehow finding that key to immortality. They followed Platonic (and other Greeks) philosophy. What does that have to do with Christianity? I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. 32:57 Ancient languages and Brian's education . And I-- in my profession, we call this circumstantial, and I get it. And they found this site, along with others around the Mediterranean. So the basic point being, as far as we can tell, beer and wine are routinely mixed with things that we don't do today. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. Because at my heart, I still consider myself a good Catholic boy. 474, ?] CHARLES STANG: OK. We don't have to look very hard to find that. The answer seems to be connected to psychedelic drugs. and he said, Brian, don't you dare. But even if they're telling the truth about this, even if it is accurate about Marcus that he used a love potion, a love potion isn't a Eucharist. I can't imagine that there were no Christians that availed themselves of this biotechnology, and I can't imagine-- it's entirely plausible to me that they would mix this biotechnology with the Eucharist. The long and short of it is, in 1978 there was no hard scientific data to prove this one way or the other. But it just happens to show up at the right place at the right time, when the earliest Christians could have availed themselves of this kind of sacrament. This time, tonight I'll say that it's just not my time yet. And so the big question is what was happening there? It's not the case in the second century. CHARLES STANG: My name is Charles Stang, and I'm the director of the Center for the Study of World Religions here at Harvard Divinity School. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More from The Tim Ferriss Show on Podchaser, aired Wednesday, 28th December 2022. Was there any similarity from that potion to what was drunk at Eleusis? Thank you, sir. Show Plants of the Gods: Hallucinogens, Healing, Culture and Conservation podcast, Ep Plants of the Gods: S4E2. Research inside the Church of Saint Faustina and Liberata Fig 1. So don't feel like you have to go into great depth at this point. The most influential religious historian of the twentieth century, Huston Smith, once referred to it as the "best-kept secret" in history. So whatever was happening there was important. 101. CHARLES STANG: All right. Which is really weird, because that's how the same Dina Bazer, the same atheist in the psilocybin trials, described her insight. Nage ?] And I wonder whether the former narrative serves the interests of the latter. And maybe therein we do since the intimation of immortality. So let's start with one that is more contemporary. There he is. Maybe I'm afraid I'll take the psychedelic and I won't have what is reported in the literature from Hopkins and NYU. A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. Now, I've had experiences outside the Eucharist that resonate with me. I mean, what-- my big question is, what can we say about the Eucharist-- and maybe it's just my weird lens, but what can we say about it definitively in the absence of the archaeochemstry or the archaeobotany?